Is it fair for TS to critisize men for not taking on their battle?

[lament]

Obviously the entire LGB community faces some level of discrimination/hate from the general public. Progress has been made by the group as a whole, but tolerance for TS is lower than the rest of the group. I think this is the case for two reasons.

First, there is a disagreement in placing TS in any one of the boxes L, G, or B. I think many if not most people consider TS and their partners to be gay men, while TS themselves and many others consider them to not be men. Second, and probably more importantly, I think genetic women are hostile against TS because they feel like TS are encroaching on their territory, like TS are trying to "steal" their men. Kind of like many black women pissed/threatened/offended when black men date outside of their race. I say this based on reading comments of YouTube clips where TS are talking about things like acceptance, gender identification etc. Men are never riled up in these conversations, but the people getting riled up are always women. I don't think society will accept TS as women until genetic females do, since women have influence over what men do.

Anyway, I digress.

The point of this thread is that many TS seem to expect men to jump straight into this battle. I do not think it is fair to place men in a position where their entire life will change based fighting this battle. The situation is not at all similar to a gay guy who likes men coming out. When he comes out, there is a large gay community to go to, not to mention gays are more accepted in society, as mentioned earlier. A dude that likes TS doesn't have that luxury. TS actually have a community they can go to. TS admirers (most) don't.

Of course there are men who will come out, but everyone's situation is different, and it is not fair to judge someone based on their decision to do it or not. Just my $0.02..

BTW. I don't think it's wrong to exclude men from you personal life based on the decision. I can understand how you don't want to feel like someones "dirty little secret" or that they are ashamed of you. Although I don't really think it is being ashamed so much as preserving one's current lifestyle.

[CosmicTraveler]

It's not entirely unreasonable to think that someone with whom you invest emotion and free time into should actually give enough of a damn to defend you and treat you like a decent human being as opposed to someone you lock away in the basement and home no one ever finds out you have there.

If a girl claimed that she was into you and yet every time someone she knew saw you two together, she took off running and screaming " Rape! " would you still want to be with her? Fact of the matter is, it's not like every ts is expecting every guy to grab a rainbow flag with the faces of you and her on it and say " We were born with the same genitalia! Fucking take that! " But no one wants to be hidden away like some dirty secret.

It isn't about grabbing a bat with nails in it and running down the street swinging, it's about grabbing her hand and not giving a shit what anyone else has to say.

[lament]

It's not entirely unreasonable to think that someone with whom you invest emotion and free time into should actually give enough of a damn to defend you and treat you like a decent human being as opposed to someone you lock away in the basement and home no one ever finds out you have there.

If a girl claimed that she was into you and yet every time someone she knew saw you two together, she took off running and screaming " Rape! " would you still want to be with her? Fact of the matter is, it's not like every ts is expecting every guy to grab a rainbow flag with the faces of you and her on it and say " We were born with the same genitalia! Fucking take that! " But no one wants to be hidden away like some dirty secret.

It isn't about grabbing a bat with nails in it and running down the street swinging, it's about grabbing her hand and not giving a shit what anyone else has to say.

You are talking about personal relationships. Like I said in the last paragraph of OP, it is perfectly fine to demand that from someone they are intimate with. My point in this thread is more about TS projecting this onto all men into TS.

[CosmicTraveler]

But you're stating this like guys who are into tgs are outside of this spectrum. The fact of the matter is, they shouldn't have to hide any thing. It's not as if this issue is completely separate from you just because you're not a ts. If you're into them it's a cause for you as well.

[lament]

But you're stating this like guys who are into tgs are outside of this spectrum. The fact of the matter is, they shouldn't have to hide any thing. It's not as if this issue is completely separate from you just because you're not a ts. If you're into them it's a cause for you as well.
I agree that guys who are into TS are inherently in the spectrum. But the life they live is similar to people who are not in the spectrum. To ask them to give that up is asking a lot. Again, some can make that step. But everyone's situation is different.

[Ms Remy M]

Obviously the entire LGB community faces some level of discrimination/hate from the general public. Progress has been made by the group as a whole, but tolerance for TS is lower than the rest of the group. I think this is the case for two reasons.

First, there is a disagreement in placing TS in any one of the boxes L, G, or B. I think many if not most people consider TS and their partners to be gay men, while TS themselves and many others consider them to not be men. Second, and probably more importantly, I think genetic women are hostile against TS because they feel like TS are encroaching on their territory, like TS are trying to "steal" their men. Kind of like many black women pissed/threatened/offended when black men date outside of their race. I say this based on reading comments of YouTube clips where TS are talking about things like acceptance, gender identification etc. Men are never riled up in these conversations, but the people getting riled up are always women. I don't think society will accept TS as women until genetic females do, since women have influence over what men do.

Anyway, I digress.

The point of this thread is that many TS seem to expect men to jump straight into this battle. I do not think it is fair to place men in a position where their entire life will change based fighting this battle. The situation is not at all similar to a gay guy who likes men coming out. When he comes out, there is a large gay community to go to, not to mention gays are more accepted in society, as mentioned earlier. A dude that likes TS doesn't have that luxury. TS actually have a community they can go to. TS admirers (most) don't.

Of course there are men who will come out, but everyone's situation is different, and it is not fair to judge someone based on their decision to do it or not. Just my $0.02..

BTW. I don't think it's wrong to exclude men from you personal life based on the decision. I can understand how you don't want to feel like someones "dirty little secret" or that they are ashamed of you. Although I don't really think it is being ashamed so much as preserving one's current lifestyle.

Again, I would like to point to the Civil Rights movement, and how many white people stood by black side even though it wasn't there battle. It's a human rights issue more than just a trans issue. We are all people here, so stand up for your fellow citizens don't come up with any and every excuse to stay hidden away pretending there's no problem.

[Ms Remy M]

It's not entirely unreasonable to think that someone with whom you invest emotion and free time into should actually give enough of a damn to defend you and treat you like a decent human being as opposed to someone you lock away in the basement and home no one ever finds out you have there.

If a girl claimed that she was into you and yet every time someone she knew saw you two together, she took off running and screaming " Rape! " would you still want to be with her? Fact of the matter is, it's not like every ts is expecting every guy to grab a rainbow flag with the faces of you and her on it and say " We were born with the same genitalia! Fucking take that! " But no one wants to be hidden away like some dirty secret.

It isn't about grabbing a bat with nails in it and running down the street swinging, it's about grabbing her hand and not giving a shit what anyone else has to say.

*hugs* Thank you, glad someone does "get it" :cool:

[Ms Remy M]

I agree that guys who are into TS are inherently in the spectrum. But the life they live is similar to people who are not in the spectrum. To ask them to give that up is asking a lot. Again, some can make that step. But everyone's situation is different.

Shaking my head. Is it really that big of a step to treat people humanely and with the same respect you would anyone else. No one is asking you to raise a rainbow flag, just give respect where respect is due.

[raheme]

Again, I would like to point to the Civil Rights movement, and how many white people stood by black side even though it wasn't there battle. It's a human rights issue more than just a trans issue. We are all people here, so stand up for your fellow citizens don't come up with any and every excuse to stay hidden away pretending there's no problem.

Correction, they stood by the blacks they felt were more advantageous for them to align with. Not all blacks were on the same page. I get so sick of gay folks equating the civil rights era to what's going on now.
Gays have rights in america. Marriage, by definition is a religous term. One man and one woman. Blacks were denied the right to marry whites because their humanity was in question, not their orientation or sexuality. I would be denied the right to marry a white woman because a white man would not see me as a man but as an animal or object.
Equating that to gay marriage rights of today is totally off base in my opinion.

[CosmicTraveler]

I agree that guys who are into TS are inherently in the spectrum. But the life they live is similar to people who are not in the spectrum. To ask them to give that up is asking a lot. Again, some can make that step. But everyone's situation is different.

It's true, not everyone can do it. But the point of it all is to make it so no one has to worry about whether they can do it. If you glue all the pins together, the ball cannot topple them.

[CosmicTraveler]

*hugs* Thank you, glad someone does "get it" :cool:

:eek: - faint - n____n

[lament]

Shaking my head. Is it really that big of a step to treat people humanely and with the same respect you would anyone else. No one is asking you to raise a rainbow flag, just give respect where respect is due.

By giving respect where respect is due, I assume you mean being open and honest about one's attraction/relationships with transsexuals. To many people who consider that gay, "giving respect where respect is due" basically is waving a rainbow flag.

TS in these situation certainly do deserve more respect and acceptance, but the source of the problem lies in society, not the man that doesn't want to come out. He is caught between a rock and a hard place, and it is only natural, in that situation, for people to do what's best for them personally. For some, that means being honest. For others, the best thing for them is to keep it a secret to prevent their lives from changing, friends/family disowning them, etc.

[Ms Remy M]

By giving respect where respect is due, I assume you mean being open and honest about one's attraction/relationships with transsexuals. To many people who consider that gay, "giving respect where respect is due" basically is waving a rainbow flag.

If someone were to ask you do you date/like Ts women, yes, tell the truth.


TS in these situation certainly do deserve more respect and acceptance, but the source of the problem lies in society, not the man that doesn't want to come out. He is caught between a rock and a hard place, and it is only natural, in that situation, for people to do what's best for them personally. For some, that means being honest. For others, the best thing for them is to keep it a secret to prevent their lives from changing, friends/family disowning them, etc.

Society is a huge umbrella people are standing under as an excuse to be in the closet. Fuck society! There is no rock and hard place, and once you are truly comfortable with yourself you will see that. People will actually respect you more for being truthful about who you are, instead of being phoney and pretending to be this or that.

[lament]

People will actually respect you more for being truthful about who you are, instead of being phoney and pretending to be this or that.

Unfortunately that's not the world we live in. It is true for some, but for many, people will judge, disown, etc. Everybody's situation is different. Everybody doesn't live in socially advanced areas like Atlanta, LA, etc where people are more open minded. And black people in general seem to be more anti gay imo, so a black dude will usually not face this warm and fuzzy, understanding, non judgmental world you speak of if he comes out. So you are saying he should say fuck you to everything around him if they are judgmental about this issue. But that is asking him to radically change his life, a life is is perfectly content in having.

[CosmicTraveler]

If he feels that way, then he shouldn't drag someone else into it when they have the potential to make his world unhappy. It's only going to make the both of them unhappy in the end.

[TsBrooklynMattel]

I see this way. If you are attracted to ts-women your attracted to ts women. What we are asking as Ts women is not to hide behind excuse after excuse for your comfort. We Should not have to fight your battle along with ours with no one behind us. If u coward away everytime someone brought up TRANSSEXUAL. Your not helping your own cause, & there are a ton of men who are admirers who congregate together. Just Some men choose not to be associated with them because they think some of the other men are strange for what they fancy. So its alot of judgement & then expecting not to be judged.

[Ms Remy M]

Unfortunately that's not the world we live in. It is true for some, but for many, people will judge, disown, etc. Everybody's situation is different. Everybody doesn't live in socially advanced areas like Atlanta, LA, etc where people are more open minded. And black people in general seem to be more anti gay imo, so a black dude will usually not face this warm and fuzzy, understanding, non judgmental world you speak of if he comes out. So you are saying he should say fuck you to everything around him if they are judgmental about this issue. But that is asking him to radically change his life, a life is is perfectly content in having.

lol still missing the point. Life obviously isn't "perfectly content" if running and hiding and coming here in secret. That's the mouse scratching to get free of it's cage. The tiger in it's zoo pen may feel it's in it's proper environment, but let that tiger run free in the jungle and you'll see real happiness. I'm not saying that people wont judge, I am saying that their judgement doesn't matter, it means nothing, the only weight their judgement holds is in what you allow it to hold. To hell with Atlanta and LA, you are still in America and there are openly gay and trans people and admirers all around in every state. This issue is as baseless and excuse driven as "ts escort because they can't find jobs" in my opinion.

[Ms Remy M]

Here is a totally different topic which still plays on same philosophy. I ride motorcycles and have a crotch rocket. I love bikes, be they crotch rockets, cruisers, or moto-cross. My whole neighborhood is filled with 2 bike clubs and primarily busa riders. I'm not going to allow what they think about cruisers to influence my decision, my next motorcycle purchase is going to be a cruiser because that's what makes me happy. I can give two fucks if the neighborhood is going to think less of me for not upgrading to the latest and greatest sport bike, you have to do what is going to make you happy. Now, if only I can afford that Harley lol nah, I'm a die hard Suzuki fan :)

[TsBrooklynMattel]

Here is a totally different topic which still plays on same philosophy. I ride motorcycles and have a crotch rocket. I love bikes, be they crotch rockets, cruisers, or moto-cross. My whole neighborhood is filled with 2 bike clubs and primarily busa riders. I'm not going to allow what they think about cruisers to influence my decision, my next motorcycle purchase is going to be a cruiser because that's what makes me happy. I can give two fucks if the neighborhood is going to think less of me for not upgrading to the latest and greatest sport bike, you have to do what is going to make you happy. Now, if only I can afford that Harley lol nah, I'm a die hard Suzuki fan :)

Yes Go suzuki. Hayabusa all the way!!!!!!!

[thegirlnextdoor]

You are talking about personal relationships. Like I said in the last paragraph of OP, it is perfectly fine to demand that from someone they are intimate with. My point in this thread is more about TS projecting this onto all men into TS.

i dont expect all men to do that.i do expect men or women (either as lover or friend) who want to be a part of my personal life have enough courage,conviction and character to be like this is my lover/friend deal with it if there was ever a need.
if you cant that fine but the only way those types can interact with me is either as a client or thru the sex industry/trade.

[CosmicTraveler]

It's also kind of sidestepping. Like what if in Braveheart everyone just said to the one guy " Well I mean... they really only killed your wife... sooo... I mean y'know... We're just gonna go back in the house. Yeeaaah. "

[Ms Remy M]

It's also kind of sidestepping. Like what if in Braveheart everyone just said to the one guy " Well I mean... they really only killed your wife... sooo... I mean y'know... We're just gonna go back in the house. Yeeaaah. "

lol "...to the one guy" = William Wallace.

[CosmicTraveler]

lol "...to the one guy" = William Wallace.

Yeah, I did indeed neglect to mention the name. I didn't even realize I'd forgotten it. Also because I was trying to decide between using him, or the other guy whose wife had been soiled.

But yeah, over all, this fellow seems to be rather ashamed of what he's doing and I guess that's sort of the thrill for him. That being said, escorts are for you. Not girls looking for real relationships.

[lament]

lol still missing the point. Life obviously isn't "perfectly content" if running and hiding and coming here in secret. That's the mouse scratching to get free of it's cage. The tiger in it's zoo pen may feel it's in it's proper environment, but let that tiger run free in the jungle and you'll see real happiness. I'm not saying that people wont judge, I am saying that their judgement doesn't matter, it means nothing, the only weight their judgement holds is in what you allow it to hold. To hell with Atlanta and LA, you are still in America and there are openly gay and trans people and admirers all around in every state. This issue is as baseless and excuse driven as "ts escort because they can't find jobs" in my opinion.

yeah you are right perfectly content is not the right term. But more content in many cases. Again, this is the rock and hard place again. There really isn't a jungle for most TS admirers to go to if their current cage rejects them. They live lifestyles of heterosexual men. If that cage rejects them, what jungle do they go to? The vibrant tranny chaser community lol?? Didn't know there was such a thing.This isn't like a gay dude coming out who can then be part of that gay culture, which is large.

As a side note, most dudes into TS are only into the porn. I am not sure about how many TS admirers actually every have any physical interaction, because you don't see hot TS everyday walking down the street, and many don't want to do the escort thing. So I bet most dudes into TS are only watching porn of them. Do you think they need to be freed from their cages too? What would they gain by "coming out" in this case?

[lament]

Yeah, I did indeed neglect to mention the name. I didn't even realize I'd forgotten it. Also because I was trying to decide between using him, or the other guy whose wife had been soiled.

But yeah, over all, this fellow seems to be rather ashamed of what he's doing and I guess that's sort of the thrill for him. That being said, escorts are for you. Not girls looking for real relationships.

I am not ashamed, I personally am in the "don't give a fuck what others think of me" category because that is my nature in all things, this case being no different. But to expect that from everyone does not make sense. It goes against human nature. We do what is in our best interest. And if the truth would change someone's life for the worse, some things are better left unsaid.. This isn't an emotionally charged issue for me since I've never been treated like a dirty little secret, so I probably like sensitivity there and I understand why this can be an emotional issue. But they have to put the shoe on the other foot to understand the man's dilemma as well.

[Ms Remy M]

yeah you are right perfectly content is not the right term. But more content in many cases. Again, this is the rock and hard place again. There really isn't a jungle for most TS admirers to go to if their current cage rejects them. They live lifestyles of heterosexual men. If that cage rejects them, what jungle do they go to? The vibrant tranny chaser community lol?? Didn't know there was such a thing.This isn't like a gay dude coming out who can then be part of that gay culture, which is large.

*sigh* Ok, I'm giving you some info I don't normally share, but what the hell, if you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem eh.

There are events held usually monthly called 'Munch'. Any major city has one going on and you will not notice unless you are part of said Munch. Munch is a meeting of like minded individuals, started by the BDSM community but has grown since. Everyone meets in casual attire somewhere like Applebees (my fav chain restaurant) or any pub or restaurant, and everyone is into TS and ts also are present. The munch allows the curious to talk to like minded folk and socialize in public without fear of incrimination. Newbs will usually have a 'safe' person that is very 'vanilla' (normal looking) you can approach to ask a question or if you want to be introduced to someone. You've neglected to state where you are located, but I'm positive if it's one of at least 48 states, there is a Munch going on near you.


As a side note, most dudes into TS are only into the porn. I am not sure about how many TS admirers actually every have any physical interaction, because you don't see hot TS everyday walking down the street, and many don't want to do the escort thing. So I bet most dudes into TS are only watching porn of them. Do you think they need to be freed from their cages too? What would they gain by "coming out" in this case?

Your side note is not a fact, that's just a statement you are pulling from the ether. Actually, you probably do see TS everyday walking down the street, they just are not broadcasting that they are ts. All animals, yes humans are animals, should be freed from their cages. Freedom is that precious nectar that is gained. Seriously, when you go to the zoo or SeaWorld, none of those animals want to be there, it's not like the world is a better place because we've caged these animals for human viewing pleasure. They want to be free, and many will die from the mental stress of being caged, and the same can be said for humans.

[CosmicTraveler]

*sigh* Ok, I'm giving you some info I don't normally share, but what the hell, if you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem eh.

There are events held usually monthly called 'Munch'. Any major city has one going on and you will not notice unless you are part of said Munch. Munch is a meeting of like minded individuals, started by the BDSM community but has grown since. Everyone meets in casual attire somewhere like Applebees (my fav chain restaurant) or any pub or restaurant, and everyone is into TS and ts also are present. The munch allows the curious to talk to like minded folk and socialize in public without fear of incrimination. Newbs will usually have a 'safe' person that is very 'vanilla' (normal looking) you can approach to ask a question or if you want to be introduced to someone. You've neglected to state where you are located, but I'm positive if it's one of at least 48 states, there is a Munch going on near you.


......How come you never told me about this? >_> I'm hurt Remy, you cut me deep... real deep.

[Ms Remy M]

......How come you never told me about this? >_> I'm hurt Remy, you cut me deep... real deep.

Dude, you are in NY, there are so many things going on, clubs, t-parties, everything under the sun is happening there. Also, I like to step out sometimes and not be the "porn producer", I just want to be. One of ways I've found so many women that are into trans :D

[lament]

*sigh* Ok, I'm giving you some info I don't normally share, but what the hell, if you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem eh.

There are events held usually monthly called 'Munch'. Any major city has one going on and you will not notice unless you are part of said Munch. Munch is a meeting of like minded individuals, started by the BDSM community but has grown since. Everyone meets in casual attire somewhere like Applebees (my fav chain restaurant) or any pub or restaurant, and everyone is into TS and ts also are present. The munch allows the curious to talk to like minded folk and socialize in public without fear of incrimination. Newbs will usually have a 'safe' person that is very 'vanilla' (normal looking) you can approach to ask a question or if you want to be introduced to someone. You've neglected to state where you are located, but I'm positive if it's one of at least 48 states, there is a Munch going on near you.



Your side note is not a fact, that's just a statement you are pulling from the ether. Actually, you probably do see TS everyday walking down the street, they just are not broadcasting that they are ts. All animals, yes humans are animals, should be freed from their cages. Freedom is that precious nectar that is gained. Seriously, when you go to the zoo or SeaWorld, none of those animals want to be there, it's not like the world is a better place because we've caged these animals for human viewing pleasure. They want to be free, and many will die from the mental stress of being caged, and the same can be said for humans.

where is much atl?:)

[lament]

All animals, yes humans are animals, should be freed from their cages. Freedom is that precious nectar that is gained. Seriously, when you go to the zoo or SeaWorld, none of those animals want to be there, it's not like the world is a better place because we've caged these animals for human viewing pleasure. They want to be free, and many will die from the mental stress of being caged, and the same can be said for humans.

Deep stuff, generally true, but not necessarily so in every case imo. Those animals definitely do want to be in the ocean rather than their cages, and yet there are definitely worse places they could be than their (very nice) prison. If the fish broke out of it's cage, it would land on the floor and suffocate, because there's no ocean in sight. That is the rock and the hard place. Like you mentioned with much though, I guess there are clandestine routes to the ocean.

[CosmicTraveler]

Dude, you are in NY, there are so many things going on, clubs, t-parties, everything under the sun is happening there. Also, I like to step out sometimes and not be the "porn producer", I just want to be. One of ways I've found so many women that are into trans :D

Yeah but... you know I'm socially inept. >_>;;;;; Help me out here. If I could get my own girls I probably wouldn't be here.

[Ms Remy M]

where is much atl?:)

*face palm* Seriously dude, you are in Atlanta making all these proclamations!?! That is Black Gay Mecca, walk outside, go to Lennox Mall, everywhere and anywhere you go, trans women are walking around you. lol I could probably do a bit of research and find a munch in your area, but it's usually an invite sort of thing.

[Ms Remy M]

Yeah but... you know I'm socially inept. >_>;;;;; Help me out here. If I could get my own girls I probably wouldn't be here.

While hook-ups do happen there, it's more just about being social with like minded individuals. I'm not liking the idea of being Ms Hook Up. Again, you are in NY, there is no shortage of places to go to meet Trans, but we are cool and don't want to leave you hanging, so ask again in PM and I will see what I can do. You know, this feels a lot like work to me... lol :p

[CosmicTraveler]

lol Black Gay Mecca.

[lament]

*face palm* Seriously dude, you are in Atlanta making all these proclamations!?! That is Black Gay Mecca, walk outside, go to Lennox Mall, everywhere and anywhere you go, trans women are walking around you. lol I could probably do a bit of research and find a munch in your area, but it's usually an invite sort of thing.

lol, this post is not really about me personally, just the situation in general. I might be a little young for that anyway, but I am surprised there are secret meetings.

[Ms Remy M]

Correction, they stood by the blacks they felt were more advantageous for them to align with. Not all blacks were on the same page. I get so sick of gay folks equating the civil rights era to what's going on now.
Gays have rights in america. Marriage, by definition is a religous term. One man and one woman. Blacks were denied the right to marry whites because their humanity was in question, not their orientation or sexuality. I would be denied the right to marry a white woman because a white man would not see me as a man but as an animal or object.
Equating that to gay marriage rights of today is totally off base in my opinion.

I don't think I made a single comment about Gay Marriage at all in this thread. I don't support any religious institution, but I do think marriage can exist outside of religion, whether you choose to change the name to Civil Union means nothing to ME. Civil rights are just that, doesn't matter if you black, hispanic, gay, leper, asian, native american, felon, etc. Nice to know some minorities will draw a line and try to make themselves more important than their fellow human citizens.

[thegirlnextdoor]

I don't think I made a single comment about Gay Marriage at all in this thread. I don't support any religious institution, but I do think marriage can exist outside of religion, whether you choose to change the name to Civil Union means nothing to ME. Civil rights are just that, doesn't matter if you black, hispanic, gay, leper, asian, native american, felon, etc. Nice to know some minorities will draw a line and try to make themselves more important than their fellow human citizens.

thats very common mamita.the repressed often become the most repressive.an extreme example of this would be nazi germany.

[Ms Remy M]

lol, this post is not really about me personally, just the situation in general. I might be a little young for that anyway, but I am surprised there are secret meetings.

So you keep saying... Think of it as more exclusive than secret. Just a matter of doing some basic research to find more info on the subject matter, and not like there's some handshake to gain entry. In fact, I'm almost certain, you could find all you need to know on one of those damned social sites like ughhhhhhhhhhhh face book (that was a painful sound by the way). :) There, that is the first and hopefully last time I even casually point someone in the direction of that site. Of course there's always google as well.

Ummm, a little young, what exactly are you doing on an Adult forum again. *ban finger raised* lol :p

[lament]

So you keep saying... Think of it as more exclusive than secret. Just a matter of doing some basic research to find more info on the subject matter, and not like there's some handshake to gain entry. In fact, I'm almost certain, you could find all you need to know on one of those damned social sites like ughhhhhhhhhhhh face book (that was a painful sound by the way). :) There, that is the first and hopefully last time I even casually point someone in the direction of that site. Of course there's always google as well.

Ummm, a little young, what exactly are you doing on an Adult forum again. *ban finger raised* lol :p

Young at heart I mean;)