Amber's New Set

[Kazharlem]

Anyone seen Amber's new set? It was Fucking amazing. That woman has talent. She is by and far one of the sexiest models on the BTG site!!!

[Indy24]

Who's Amber?

[Kazharlem]

Go check out the newestest update on BTG and you will see. This chick is sexy, hott and fucking awesome. I would love to be wiyh her for a few hours.

[bigdicki]

Anyone seen Amber's new set? It was Fucking amazing. That woman has talent. She is by and far one of the sexiest models on the BTG site!!!

....And she didn't dodge the cumshot this time! :cool:

[jigglygmoney]

Anyone seen Amber's new set? It was Fucking amazing. That woman has talent. She is by and far one of the sexiest models on the BTG site!!!


LOL A total of 6 posts and 4 of them are about Amber. Smells funny to me. But if thats what she feels she needs to do to get people interested, oh well. Wouldnt work on me because she's far from my type.

[jigglygmoney]

*edit*

LOL Something is afoot!

[Ms Remy M]

Ya and are post will be deleted, BTG is really trying to push this set....FAIL

Nope, just idiots who fail to recognize the rules of the forum, Respect. :cool:

[Ms Remy M]

Ok *sarcastic*...but its a forum I can have an opinion, good or bad :)

Says the person who only just created a 'free' profile and has only contributed to the forum to berate people. So nope, not if it's disrespectful toward our models or members, read the forum rules.

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Now playing: Nirvana - Negative Creep (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/nirvana/track/negative+creep)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[jigglygmoney]

Says the person who only just created a 'free' profile and has only contributed to the forum to berate people. So nope, not if it's disrespectful toward our models or members, read the forum rules.

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Now playing: Nirvana - Negative Creep (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/nirvana/track/negative+creep)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)


My post want meant to disrespect anyone Remy. I just found it kinda strange so I pointed it out. I feel where you're coming from though.

[Ms Remy M]

My post want meant to disrespect anyone Remy. I just found it kinda strange so I pointed it out. I feel where you're coming from though.

I wasn't speaking to you.

I can sit here and tell you that Kazharlem isn't Amber, but you'll still likely believe whatever you want. I suppose any person that says something about a model is actually the model incognito by the logic you are applying here... :p

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Now playing: Nirvana - Heart-Shaped Box (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/nirvana/track/heart-shaped+box)
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[jigglygmoney]

I wasn't speaking to you.

I can sit here and tell you that Kazharlem isn't Amber, but you'll still likely believe whatever you want. I suppose any person that says something about a model is actually the model incognito by the logic you are applying here... :p

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Now playing: Nirvana - Heart-Shaped Box (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/nirvana/track/heart-shaped+box)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

LOL Not necessarily, but it does happen. I wont say who, but a couple girls have been outed for this sort of thing.

[GroobySteven]

Ok *sarcastic*...but its a forum I can have an opinion, good or bad :)

Nah, not considering I've seen your IP address.
You've about 1 post left to smarten up before ejection. FAIL

[Ms Remy M]

LOL Not necessarily, but it does happen. I wont say who, but a couple girls have been outed for this sort of thing.

lol ohhh really and when did a couple girls on this forum do such a thing? Please, do tell who could have been committing such devious acts right under my nose.

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Now playing: Five Finger Death Punch - The Way Of The Fist (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/five+finger+death+punch/track/the+way+of+the+fist)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[raheme]

Judging the reviews from u guys I'm guessing porn ain't for everybody. Truth be told, the only reason I signed up for the black shemale hardcore site was to see a video of amber and some dude like a few months ago. She seems like an awesome chick on and offline, well she used to before I started getting weird messages (not sure if it was her or someone hacked her account on here).
The dude she did that scene with was, in all honesty, kinda lame. No disrespect but homie didn't bring the wood and kinda looked like he was bored. It didn't seem like she was feeling the scene either. It was about 20 minutes of 4 out of 10 scale sex scene. And the 4 was off the strength of ambers beauty. The sex was just bad.
Don't know if this scene was any better. Haven't renewed my membership. Doesn't seem like the reviews are good. Was this one of your shoots remy? I watched a scene of sasha and the guy that passed away with the dreads, and even though she isn't a bottom, that scene was hot because both of them were into the shoot. She convinced me that for those few minutes she was the worlds best bottom lol.
I guess that might be the difference here. A woman like sasha sees it as a business and treats it very importantly, puts forth extra effort and goes all out when they say lights, camera, action. Only remy knows if the same is true for amber...just doesn't come off that way on screen.
Its not a bad thing, everything just ain't for everybody. Not sure why everyones getting upset in here over opinions.

[Ms Remy M]

Judging the reviews from u guys I'm guessing porn ain't for everybody. Truth be told, the only reason I signed up for the black shemale hardcore site was to see a video of amber and some dude like a few months ago. She seems like an awesome chick on and offline, well she used to before I started getting weird messages (not sure if it was her or someone hacked her account on here).
The dude she did that scene with was, in all honesty, kinda lame. No disrespect but homie didn't bring the wood and kinda looked like he was bored. It didn't seem like she was feeling the scene either. It was about 20 minutes of 4 out of 10 scale sex scene. And the 4 was off the strength of ambers beauty. The sex was just bad.
Don't know if this scene was any better. Haven't renewed my membership. Doesn't seem like the reviews are good. Was this one of your shoots remy? I watched a scene of sasha and the guy that passed away with the dreads, and even though she isn't a bottom, that scene was hot because both of them were into the shoot. She convinced me that for those few minutes she was the worlds best bottom lol.
I guess that might be the difference here. A woman like sasha sees it as a business and treats it very importantly, puts forth extra effort and goes all out when they say lights, camera, action. Only remy knows if the same is true for amber...just doesn't come off that way on screen.
Its not a bad thing, everything just ain't for everybody. Not sure why everyones getting upset in here over opinions.

That guy in Amber first scene was very lame, he only wanted to suck dick, and didn't like actually fucking, loser!!! Not even sure now why that fool wanted to do porn, he can go hit up a gay bar and find all the dick he wants to suck on.

The new Amber shoot, will eventually make it on to BSH but not sure when.

You have to be a member to see the reviews on the scene. The two people who have negatively commented were on her personality/looks not the actual scene itself. One of them, Amber warned me about previously is the same person who she suspects hacked her account, yet another fucking loser with no life. Dudes acting like it's her hair that's the issue (which it may be), but girls with short hair have been on the site before Amber debuted the new cut which goes to prove that it's a personal problem with her, or else they would have been harping on the others on the site as well.

This is exactly why I despise the free forum, people just lurk around running their mouth and contribute zero to the site by way of membership or meaningful conversation. Bunch of guys hiding behind the pc talking trash cause they don't want their trans women stating their opinions on matters, just having sex.


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Now playing: Lamb Of God - Ashes Of The Wake (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/lamb+of+god/track/ashes+of+the+wake)
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[raheme]

That guy in Amber first scene was very lame, he only wanted to suck dick, and didn't like actually fucking, loser!!! Not even sure now why that fool wanted to do porn, he can go hit up a gay bar and find all the dick he wants to suck on.

The new Amber shoot, will eventually make it on to BSH but not sure when.

You have to be a member to see the reviews on the scene. The two people who have negatively commented were on her personality/looks not the actual scene itself. One of them, Amber warned me about previously is the same person who she suspects hacked her account, yet another fucking loser with no life. Dudes acting like it's her hair that's the issue (which it may be), but girls with short hair have been on the site before Amber debuted the new cut which goes to prove that it's a personal problem with her, or else they would have been harping on the others on the site as well.

This is exactly why I despise the free forum, people just lurk around running their mouth and contribute zero to the site by way of membership or meaningful conversation. Bunch of guys hiding behind the pc talking trash cause they don't want their trans women stating their opinions on matters, just having sex.


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Now playing: Lamb Of God - Ashes Of The Wake (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/lamb+of+god/track/ashes+of+the+wake)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

I actually like her with the short hair. Rocks in my book. Maybe it turns some guys off because it reminds them of a guy idk. Long or short, she good in my book.

Also not sure what software/program you use to run the board but I've been on other forums that don't allow newer members to make post unmoderated. Basically until you reach senior status (say like 100 posts or 4 months active) all your post get reviewed before posting.

That would probably help around here. Might also help to have an additional moderator around here.

[GroobySteven]

That would probably help around here. Might also help to have an additional moderator around here.

Two mods here already and we're on daily. I'm already fairly heavy handed compared to some forums - if we were to introduce more restrictions it could kill the flow.
The reason the forum is free, is so people can participate when between memberships AND learn that they should join and contribute.
Take a look at the 6-7 samples I've posted on this scene, it's very hot.

[ROC]

is this the amber everyone is talking about in this post...?

[jigglygmoney]

lol ohhh really and when did a couple girls on this forum do such a thing? Please, do tell who could have been committing such devious acts right under my nose.

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Now playing: Five Finger Death Punch - The Way Of The Fist (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/five+finger+death+punch/track/the+way+of+the+fist)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

No not on this forum Remy. It was on HA.

[METALFACE]

I Love Ambers new look I think she is beautiful no matter how she looks and Remy I think u might know of me because I'm her BF I see the things being said I normally would not be on here or any forum but will support and Love her :)

[DYNACORD]

is this the amber everyone is talking about in this post...?

Yes ROC it is. Amber has a certain aura about her look. No matter if she has hair or not.

[GroobySteven]

I Love Ambers new look I think she is beautiful no matter how she looks and Remy I think u might know of me because I'm her BF I see the things being said I normally would not be on here or any forum but will support and Love her :)


Wow she does set the bar low on intelligence?

You are also "whatumacallit" who commented on this post - or at least you both live at the same address (Mom? :eek:)

You can't have two identities on this forum, choose one.

[raheme]

Wow she does set the bar low on intelligence?

You are also "whatumacallit" who commented on this post - or at least you both live at the same address (Mom? :eek:)

You can't have two identities on this forum, choose one.

Now that's a damn shame. Lmao

Something smells fishy in this post and it ain't the pussy

This dude comes out of nowhere with a pic of him and amber in it, obviously a new pic because she's rocking the short do...then you trace his ip address back to another user who posted in here.

This shit is sooooooooooooooooo not the business. Remy or somebody close to amber, y'all need to tell her to get her folks. Not a good look at all.

[thegreat1]

I Love Ambers new look I think she is beautiful no matter how she looks and Remy I think u might know of me because I'm her BF I see the things being said I normally would not be on here or any forum but will support and Love her :)


Wow she does set the bar low on intelligence?

You are also "whatumacallit" who commented on this post - or at least you both live at the same address (Mom? :eek:)

You can't have two identities on this forum, choose one.

BWAAAAHHHHH!!!!!

*cues Nicki Minaj* PUT YA #2'S IN THE AIR CUZ HE SHITTED ON 'EM!!!!

[Ms Remy M]

I Love Ambers new look I think she is beautiful no matter how she looks and Remy I think u might know of me because I'm her BF I see the things being said I normally would not be on here or any forum but will support and Love her :)

lol I hear you talking and do remember from the previous phone convos. All the more reason as to my displeasure for the previous comments made on this thread. Recognize the good person you have in your life and treat her right, and I wont have any issues. Real recognize real...

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Now playing: Lamb Of God - Terror And Hubris In The House (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/lamb+of+god/track/terror+and+hubris+in+the+house)
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[raheme]

lol I hear you talking and do remember from the previous phone convos. All the more reason as to my displeasure for the previous comments made on this thread. Recognize the good person you have in your life and treat her right, and I wont have any issues. Real recognize real...

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Now playing: Lamb Of God - Terror And Hubris In The House (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/lamb+of+god/track/terror+and+hubris+in+the+house)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

Its unfortunate that these are the types of dudes that these women choose to associate with smh

[tsamberskyi]

Wow she does set the bar low on intelligence?

You are also "whatumacallit" who commented on this post - or at least you both live at the same address (Mom? :eek:)

You can't have two identities on this forum, choose one.

no seanchi i dont set the bar low -__-.
Before anyone sits here and judges no one can know whats it like to love a girl who fucks for a living.While i am shocked and alittle hurt in light of this discovery, i do understand.while it may seem weird or strange from him to do it i get the need for an outlet for all of the negative and conflicting emotions that come with dating a "working" girl.he apologizes for his actions on here but he wasnt even aware that i did the shoot (my own fault) and this was his way of dealing with that betreyal.he isnt some bum of a guy who doesnt mind what i do cause he lives off of me (the type of guy so many girls settle for).he wants the best for me and want to help me reach my full potential.
sorry for all the drama guys.i love him and am trying to build a real life with him and for myself (the reason of my absence on the forum).

[tsamberskyi]

Its unfortunate that these are the types of dudes that these women choose to associate with smh

i would keep my opions to myself on this raheme.how are you to know anything about "these women" when your experience is limited to just porn since you have yet meet a trans girl in real life.i hate how you act like you know anything about me or any other trans girl experience.your on the sidelines telling me what its like to play the game.
inst there a proverb about glass house and stones?? *hint*hint*

[Indy24]

inst there a proverb about glass house and stones?? *hint*hint*

!!!!....And here I thought most clients had to rent hotels.

[CosmicTraveler]

I'm sorry... what exactly is this conflict about?

[Indy24]

I'm sorry... what exactly is this conflict about?

IDK....something about an old proverb.

You know... "A tranny's cock in your hand is worth two if she bust" ?

Yeah, Abraham Lincoln taught us that though.

[Ms Remy M]

Like I've said before Magdalena, if you like it, I love it. Follow your heart and I'll do my best to support your decisions, and as long as he stays in the "METALFACE" persona and not "whatumacallit" then I have nothing else to say on the matter. :cool:

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Now playing: Lamb Of God - Omerta (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/lamb+of+god/track/omerta)
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[METALFACE]

Ohhh I was caught, oh well, u fools can still dream and jerk yourself off to what I have, love u to babe

[Ms Remy M]

Ohhh I was caught, oh well, u fools can still dream and jerk yourself off to what I have, love u to babe

Exactly why you need not take things so personal. Porn is about the fantasy, and that's all some need for satisfaction

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Now playing: The Rolling Stones - (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/the+rolling+stones/track/(i+cant+get+no)+satisfaction)
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[Indy24]

Ohhh I was caught, oh well, u fools can still dream and jerk yourself off to what I have, love u to babe

Yeah well when you add the potential clients and men co-starting in those shoots you don't leave too many people dreaming after the fact. But have fun with that assessment anyway.

#Teamfalloffyourhighhorse!

[GroobySteven]

Ohhh I was caught, oh well, u fools can still dream and jerk yourself off to what I have, love u to babe

Hmm - one post away from being banned.

[GroobySteven]

no seanchi i dont set the bar low -__-.

Well I guess this guy must have been below the bar Amber :D How could he not know that we'd spot the same person using different usernames.

Humour aside, good luck to you both. I couldn't have an LTR with someone who "fucked for a living", I'll admit it - and I don't see how someone who "fucks for a living" can have an LTR unless everything is open so situations like this, don't come to light.

I don't really appreciate his comeback in the thread, someone with class and humour would have admitted he'd been caught and taken it with grace and humour, instead of a "fool" having to call others, "fools". Which is why if he wants to continue down that path, then he can wander out of the gate.

Sincerely, good luck to you both though.

[METALFACE]

Yeah well when you add the potential clients and men co-starting in those shoots you don't leave too many people dreaming after the fact. But have fun with that assessment anyway.

#Teamfalloffyourhighhorse!

Actually she had stopped escorting for some time now.
#assumingmakesanassofyou

[tsamberskyi]

Well I guess this guy must have been below the bar Amber :D How could he not know that we'd spot the same person using different usernames.

Humour aside, good luck to you both. I couldn't have an LTR with someone who "fucked for a living", I'll admit it - and I don't see how someone who "fucks for a living" can have an LTR unless everything is open so situations like this, don't come to light.

I don't really appreciate his comeback in the thread, someone with class and humour would have admitted he'd been caught and taken it with grace and humour, instead of a "fool" having to call others, "fools". Which is why if he wants to continue down that path, then he can wander out of the gate.

Sincerely, good luck to you both though.

Thanks.too his credit he knew that he was going to get caught.he made the second profile to make ammends and show me support.he even put himself out there and put his face out.

[Indy24]

Actually she had stopped escorting for some time now.
#assumingmakesanassofyou

Well pardon me Kevin Federline. Now it couldn't have been too long ago because I recall her mentioning it back in the Summer but hey... I guess you can still stand proud right next to those Lifetime women who's men don't beat them anymore.

Look Playboy I do the same thing you do. Hell I even got me a tall light bright tgirl like yours around here somewhere..."EXCEPT" I'm not niave enough to call other people fools while my girl's taking face shoots on camera.

I mean it's just....(sigh)

Sometimes you have to remind a person siting on their high horse that it's really a My Little Pony.

(Kanye West shrug)

[vidman]

Well pardon me Kevin Federline. Now it couldn't have been too long ago because I recall her mentioning it back in the Summer but hey... I guess you can still stand proud right next to those Lifetime women who's men don't beat them anymore.

Look Playboy I do the same thing you do. Hell I even got me a tall light bright tgirl like yours around here somewhere..."EXCEPT" I'm not niave enough to call other people fools while my girl's taking face shoots on camera.

I mean it's just....(sigh)

Sometimes you have to remind a person siting on their high horse that it's really a My Little Pony.

(Kanye West shrug)

:eek: let the church say.......

[METALFACE]

I don't need a horse I'm walking with my head held high. That's why u are a paying member of this sight and I'm sure your quite the casanova with trans girls. I have been dating trans women since my early years of highschool. I have even married two trans women and have been in commited in relationships. I am very comfortable with my sexuality unlike many of you undercover brothers on this site.

I know it was stupid what I did argument gone to far an over reacted shit happens. But that's water under the bridge between me and Amber. Because at the end of the day me and Amber will always have each others back. I'm very proud of Amber since she is not a "working girl" any more and has not been for quite some time now. I doubt many of you have not been in a relationship with a trans women besides paying for it or sitting around on your computers all day playing with your self.


X's O's

[GroobySteven]

I have even married two trans women and have been in commited in relationships.

How did those marriages and committments work out for you?

[raheme]

How did those marriages and committments work out for you?

And there it is...

Amber, all the best to you and mr. Metal. Couldn't have picked a better guy. I'm done with this thread and considering your assessment of myself, pretty much done with all things you. To defend a guy with split personalities, with no class, who's damaged goods, well...let me know how that works out for ya...

[Indy24]

And there it is...

Amber, all the best to you and mr. Metal. Couldn't have picked a better guy. I'm done with this thread and considering your assessment of myself, pretty much done with all things you. To defend a guy with split personalities, with no class, who's damaged goods, well...let me know how that works out for ya...

But he loves her! Can't you see that man???

Never mind all the disfunctional undertones that may resonant off this Guy. Or his lame assumptions and false sense of supremacy over all other people who frequent this forum. We're just mad that he's stunting in a rental car he eventually opted to buy. Now he gets to jerk off two dicks at home instead of one.

So I guess he has the upper "hand" now!

[tsamberskyi]

And there it is...

Amber, all the best to you and mr. Metal. Couldn't have picked a better guy. I'm done with this thread and considering your assessment of myself, pretty much done with all things you. To defend a guy with split personalities, with no class, who's damaged goods, well...let me know how that works out for ya...

As if you ever had something to do with me in the first place.
I wonder who's really more damaged? The guy living his life or the one sitting behind his computer emerged in some fantasy asking if assholes have clits lmaoooo

[METALFACE]

Those relationships weren't to bad, Vidman as I recall were trying to get Amber to come to your house in ATL "I got a wet bar" trying to get her to call you, very amusing. Indy your just hating because she doesn't top and I guess thats a turn off to u because she wouldn't fuck you I get that only, and I really bet you have a light bright to. Raheme you have no experience what so ever so be quite, yes I'm not perfect and I am dysfunctional but that's why Amber whants to be with me




X's O's

[GroobySteven]

T yes I'm not perfect and I am dysfunctional but that's why Amber whants to be with me

Glad we sorted that out? Dyslexic or just poorly educated?
Ill-mannered or low self-esteem?

Either way you speak volumes in what not to say, to prove a point.

[METALFACE]

Ya all four of those sound about right, I'm not trying to make a point don't need to.

[Indy24]

Indy your just hating because she doesn't top and I guess thats a turn off to u because she wouldn't fuck you I get that only, and I really bet you have a light bright to


Perhaps the hating accusation would have merit if your girl...

A)had longer hair then mine. (she is not Amber Rose so buy her a wig ASAP)
B)Was local. (I'm a tri-state area chaser)
C)Had an erection thicker than two fingers. (oh it's obvious why some trannies don't top)

Get it right Jr. you have nothing on Indy. My worst girl will put yours to to shame whether it be genetic or Ts. I only bust your girlfriends balls because she's an STD (Something To Do) That bottom/top debate was solely between me and Katt. But I guess some people wanted to be more than just a cheerleader on the sideline. But it matters not.

I don't know you or give a pedophiles fuck about you. You made a lame generalization about the people who post in this forum so I called you out on it. A fantasy is just that, nobody in here is trying to wife the bird but you!

So learn from your mistakes, know your place and get your fucking shine box!

[METALFACE]

You ain't fucking with no GG or TG unless you are paying for it. I don't know u and I don't give a fuck about u. I am getting amused by writing on here and u lame herbs responding back. My generalization must have been right I hit a nerve. Indy I will make sure to give u that good spit shine.

[CosmicTraveler]

If you feel that way, wouldn't your time be better spent with your girl than arguing over pointless things in a forum?

[Indy24]

You ain't fucking with no GG or TG unless you are paying for it. I don't know u and I don't give a fuck about u. I am getting amused by writing on here and u lame herbs responding back. Indy will make sure to give u that good spit shine.

Considering the timeshare that you're parading around here as if she's a trophy wife. I'd say you make responding back too damn easy.

F.Y.I. she didn't quit escorting, you just became her biggest client dumbass...Now go kiss the remnants from your gf's last set and keep telling yourself it's top shelf.

Fuck what you heard Indy doesn't pay for shit but keep on grasping at straws. Believe it or not but some people have options beyond a walking Redbox. I get the milk w/o commiting to the cow. Now back away from the keyboard before you hurt yourself.

[METALFACE]

Damn big baller you are always on here when do have time to fuck with anything. You don't have shit on me player. You can keep telling your right hand that or your left which ever you prefer

[METALFACE]

If you feel that way, wouldn't your time be better spent with your girl than arguing over pointless things in a forum?


My Girl is next to me right now and I'm not arguing this is just casual talk.

[Indy24]

Damn big baller you are always on here when do have time to fuck with anything. You don't have shit on me player. You can keep telling your right hand that or your left which ever you prefer

It's called a smart phone dumb ass. It allows us to walk and chew gum...

Keep trying though.

[Ms Remy M]

Let us all take a chill pill and move on to other subject matter shall we. This line of conversation is leading to nothing more than petty bickering now. Here, everyone take a Rose... :cool:

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Now playing: A Perfect Circle - Rose (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/a+perfect+circle/track/rose)
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[METALFACE]

It's called a smart phone dumb ass. It allows us to walk and chew gum...

Keep trying though.


I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass...and I'm all out of bubble gum.

[METALFACE]

Let us all take a chill pill and move on to other subject matter shall we. This line of conversation is leading to nothing more than petty bickering now. Here, everyone take a Rose... :cool:

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Now playing: A Perfect Circle - Rose (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/a+perfect+circle/track/rose)
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Yes agreed, I will bow out gracefully ;)

[vidman]

If you feel that way, wouldn't your time be better spent with your girl than arguing over pointless things in a forum?


let the church say.......

[Indy24]

It just puts things in perspective....

I've got a PC, a laptop. 3 different cellphones that I can throw sim cards into, a PS3 and a PSP.
So I'd have to be a complete idiot to make up two profiles and post both under one hardware system. Knowing damn well the mods can see my IP address. Hell not to mention there are website that can take your IP address and pin point your location.

Not saying that I have a second profile out there mind you.... Since odds are I'd be debasing that one as well if it didn't know it's damn place!