Is it fair for TS to critisize men for not taking on their battle?

Obviously the entire LGB community faces some level of discrimination/hate from the general public. Progress has been made by the group as a whole, but tolerance for TS is lower than the rest of the group. I think this is the case for two reasons.

First, there is a disagreement in placing TS in any one of the boxes L, G, or B. I think many if not most people consider TS and their partners to be gay men, while TS themselves and many others consider them to not be men. Second, and probably more importantly, I think genetic women are hostile against TS because they feel like TS are encroaching on their territory, like TS are trying to "steal" their men. Kind of like many black women pissed/threatened/offended when black men date outside of their race. I say this based on reading comments of YouTube clips where TS are talking about things like acceptance, gender identification etc. Men are never riled up in these conversations, but the people getting riled up are always women. I don't think society will accept TS as women until genetic females do, since women have influence over what men do.

Anyway, I digress.

The point of this thread is that many TS seem to expect men to jump straight into this battle. I do not think it is fair to place men in a position where their entire life will change based fighting this battle. The situation is not at all similar to a gay guy who likes men coming out. When he comes out, there is a large gay community to go to, not to mention gays are more accepted in society, as mentioned earlier. A dude that likes TS doesn't have that luxury. TS actually have a community they can go to. TS admirers (most) don't.

Of course there are men who will come out, but everyone's situation is different, and it is not fair to judge someone based on their decision to do it or not. Just my $0.02..

BTW. I don't think it's wrong to exclude men from you personal life based on the decision. I can understand how you don't want to feel like someones "dirty little secret" or that they are ashamed of you. Although I don't really think it is being ashamed so much as preserving one's current lifestyle.

It's not entirely unreasonable to think that someone with whom you invest emotion and free time into should actually give enough of a damn to defend you and treat you like a decent human being as opposed to someone you lock away in the basement and home no one ever finds out you have there.

If a girl claimed that she was into you and yet every time someone she knew saw you two together, she took off running and screaming " Rape! " would you still want to be with her? Fact of the matter is, it's not like every ts is expecting every guy to grab a rainbow flag with the faces of you and her on it and say " We were born with the same genitalia! Fucking take that! " But no one wants to be hidden away like some dirty secret.

It isn't about grabbing a bat with nails in it and running down the street swinging, it's about grabbing her hand and not giving a shit what anyone else has to say.

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Originally Posted by CosmicTraveler

It's not entirely unreasonable to think that someone with whom you invest emotion and free time into should actually give enough of a damn to defend you and treat you like a decent human being as opposed to someone you lock away in the basement and home no one ever finds out you have there.

If a girl claimed that she was into you and yet every time someone she knew saw you two together, she took off running and screaming " Rape! " would you still want to be with her? Fact of the matter is, it's not like every ts is expecting every guy to grab a rainbow flag with the faces of you and her on it and say " We were born with the same genitalia! Fucking take that! " But no one wants to be hidden away like some dirty secret.

It isn't about grabbing a bat with nails in it and running down the street swinging, it's about grabbing her hand and not giving a shit what anyone else has to say.

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You are talking about personal relationships. Like I said in the last paragraph of OP, it is perfectly fine to demand that from someone they are intimate with. My point in this thread is more about TS projecting this onto all men into TS.

But you're stating this like guys who are into tgs are outside of this spectrum. The fact of the matter is, they shouldn't have to hide any thing. It's not as if this issue is completely separate from you just because you're not a ts. If you're into them it's a cause for you as well.

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Originally Posted by CosmicTraveler

But you're stating this like guys who are into tgs are outside of this spectrum. The fact of the matter is, they shouldn't have to hide any thing. It's not as if this issue is completely separate from you just because you're not a ts. If you're into them it's a cause for you as well.

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I agree that guys who are into TS are inherently in the spectrum. But the life they live is similar to people who are not in the spectrum. To ask them to give that up is asking a lot. Again, some can make that step. But everyone's situation is different.

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Originally Posted by lament

Obviously the entire LGB community faces some level of discrimination/hate from the general public. Progress has been made by the group as a whole, but tolerance for TS is lower than the rest of the group. I think this is the case for two reasons.

First, there is a disagreement in placing TS in any one of the boxes L, G, or B. I think many if not most people consider TS and their partners to be gay men, while TS themselves and many others consider them to not be men. Second, and probably more importantly, I think genetic women are hostile against TS because they feel like TS are encroaching on their territory, like TS are trying to "steal" their men. Kind of like many black women pissed/threatened/offended when black men date outside of their race. I say this based on reading comments of YouTube clips where TS are talking about things like acceptance, gender identification etc. Men are never riled up in these conversations, but the people getting riled up are always women. I don't think society will accept TS as women until genetic females do, since women have influence over what men do.

Anyway, I digress.

The point of this thread is that many TS seem to expect men to jump straight into this battle. I do not think it is fair to place men in a position where their entire life will change based fighting this battle. The situation is not at all similar to a gay guy who likes men coming out. When he comes out, there is a large gay community to go to, not to mention gays are more accepted in society, as mentioned earlier. A dude that likes TS doesn't have that luxury. TS actually have a community they can go to. TS admirers (most) don't.

Of course there are men who will come out, but everyone's situation is different, and it is not fair to judge someone based on their decision to do it or not. Just my $0.02..

BTW. I don't think it's wrong to exclude men from you personal life based on the decision. I can understand how you don't want to feel like someones "dirty little secret" or that they are ashamed of you. Although I don't really think it is being ashamed so much as preserving one's current lifestyle.

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Again, I would like to point to the Civil Rights movement, and how many white people stood by black side even though it wasn't there battle. It's a human rights issue more than just a trans issue. We are all people here, so stand up for your fellow citizens don't come up with any and every excuse to stay hidden away pretending there's no problem.

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Originally Posted by CosmicTraveler

It's not entirely unreasonable to think that someone with whom you invest emotion and free time into should actually give enough of a damn to defend you and treat you like a decent human being as opposed to someone you lock away in the basement and home no one ever finds out you have there.

If a girl claimed that she was into you and yet every time someone she knew saw you two together, she took off running and screaming " Rape! " would you still want to be with her? Fact of the matter is, it's not like every ts is expecting every guy to grab a rainbow flag with the faces of you and her on it and say " We were born with the same genitalia! Fucking take that! " But no one wants to be hidden away like some dirty secret.

It isn't about grabbing a bat with nails in it and running down the street swinging, it's about grabbing her hand and not giving a shit what anyone else has to say.

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*hugs* Thank you, glad someone does "get it" :cool:

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Originally Posted by lament

I agree that guys who are into TS are inherently in the spectrum. But the life they live is similar to people who are not in the spectrum. To ask them to give that up is asking a lot. Again, some can make that step. But everyone's situation is different.

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Shaking my head. Is it really that big of a step to treat people humanely and with the same respect you would anyone else. No one is asking you to raise a rainbow flag, just give respect where respect is due.

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Originally Posted by Ms Remy M

Again, I would like to point to the Civil Rights movement, and how many white people stood by black side even though it wasn't there battle. It's a human rights issue more than just a trans issue. We are all people here, so stand up for your fellow citizens don't come up with any and every excuse to stay hidden away pretending there's no problem.

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Correction, they stood by the blacks they felt were more advantageous for them to align with. Not all blacks were on the same page. I get so sick of gay folks equating the civil rights era to what's going on now.
Gays have rights in america. Marriage, by definition is a religous term. One man and one woman. Blacks were denied the right to marry whites because their humanity was in question, not their orientation or sexuality. I would be denied the right to marry a white woman because a white man would not see me as a man but as an animal or object.
Equating that to gay marriage rights of today is totally off base in my opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lament

I agree that guys who are into TS are inherently in the spectrum. But the life they live is similar to people who are not in the spectrum. To ask them to give that up is asking a lot. Again, some can make that step. But everyone's situation is different.

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It's true, not everyone can do it. But the point of it all is to make it so no one has to worry about whether they can do it. If you glue all the pins together, the ball cannot topple them.