This Needs To Be Discussed!

I'm Not Into Being Topped By A Btg And Haved Noticed By The Comments Of Other Members They Feel The Same Way!again Why Not At Least Come To A Happy Medium With The Photo Shoots!make Them Appealing To Everyone By Adding An Even Amount Of Shots For People Who Like Bottoms! (more Ass Shots) The Site And It's Content "in My Opinion" Is About The Creation Of Fantasy!when Some Members View A Photo Shoot!they Fantasize About Being Topped Or Dominated!while Others Like Myself View A Photo Shoot And Fantasize About Being On Top And Dominating One Of The Many Btg's On The Site!so To The Webmasters And All Photographers!please Take This Post Into Consideration For Future Photo Shoots And Videos!as A Paying Member Of This Site I Think I Should Have A Right To Voice My Concerns!all Members Please Feel Free To Reply!

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Originally Posted by andwar

I'm Not Into Being Topped By A Btg And Haved Noticed By The Comments Of Other Members They Feel The Same Way!again Why Not At Least Come To A Happy Medium With The Photo Shoots!make Them Appealing To Everyone By Adding An Even Amount Of Shots For People Who Like Bottoms! (more Ass Shots) The Site And It's Content "in My Opinion" Is About The Creation Of Fantasy!when Some Members View A Photo Shoot!they Fantasize About Being Topped Or Dominated!while Others Like Myself View A Photo Shoot And Fantasize About Being On Top And Dominating One Of The Many Btg's On The Site!so To The Webmasters And All Photographers!please Take This Post Into Consideration For Future Photo Shoots And Videos!as A Paying Member Of This Site I Think I Should Have A Right To Voice My Concerns!all Members Please Feel Free To Reply!

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I think some members mustn’t forget that this is a site that caters to all the tastes of t-girl lovers. Those tastes vary to the surprise of some and not to others. But, what you are talking about has been discussed more than a few times here! However, that is the reason we are all here to flush out inhibition and discuss them to get clarity.
For instance: There is a post by one of the members about tea-bagging. I don’t think everyone goes for that, but they are free to express themselves about that area of sex, if they prefer it. There is a post about licking the fresh cum from a table spewed by a current model, to each their own fetish. There is a post by one of the photographers asking what we want to make this site a little spicier? I think that is the time to let it be known what you want to see more of.
Some guys like to be topped? Some guys don’t want anything near or around the back door; others like the taste and smell from the “booty tunnel”! Some guys like to fellate a cock to ejaculation; some guys like their dicks sucked to ejaculation? Some guys like to see cum flying from a cock; some like to see cum on the faces of the models? There is a myriad of sex scenarios we can talk about that won’t meet the approval of everyone, but you have that right to convey your opinion on the subject of “up” or “down”, “top” or “bottom”, left and right, I think everyone will get a word here! Put it to a poll, it wouldn’t hurt to see how other members feel.
For me, personally, I like booty, if it’s a nice one! :rolleyes:
PS, andwar, your punctuation is terrible!!!:mad: Your thread is a very tough read!:(
:cool:

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Originally Posted by TVSURFER

I think some members mustn’t forget that this is a site that caters to all the tastes of t-girl lovers. Those tastes vary to the surprise of some and not to others. But, what you are talking about has been discussed more than a few times here! However, that is the reason we are all here to flush out inhibition and discuss them to get clarity.
For instance: There is a post by one of the members about tea-bagging. I don’t think everyone goes for that, but they are free to express themselves about that area of sex, if they prefer it. There is a post about licking the fresh cum from a table spewed by a current model, to each their own fetish. There is a post by one of the photographers asking what we want to make this site a little spicier? I think that is the time to let it be known what you want to see more of.
Some guys like to be topped? Some guys don’t want anything near or around the back door; others like the taste and smell from the “booty tunnel”! Some guys like to fellate a cock to ejaculation; some guys like their dicks sucked to ejaculation? Some guys like to see cum flying from a cock; some like to see cum on the faces of the models? There is a myriad of sex scenarios we can talk about that won’t meet the approval of everyone, but you have that right to convey your opinion on the subject of “up” or “down”, “top” or “bottom”, left and right, I think everyone will get a word here! Put it to a poll, it wouldn’t hurt to see how other members feel.
For me, personally, I like booty, if it’s a nice one! :rolleyes:
PS, andwar, your punctuation is terrible!!!:mad: Your thread is a very tough read!:(
:cool:

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TV SURFER! I agree and understand that everyone has there own fetishes!and thanks for you input!and my punctuation may have not have been the best! I was in a rush!but you got my point! so will others

I like the ass shots as well, Definitly more appealing to me than a constant stream of cock shots. I think the photos have gotten much better over the years. The site caters to everyone, eventually. Just be patient!

Guess I'm greedy....I like it all...nice body, sweet juicy ass, cute in the face, big dick....there's always something for me in damn near every update. Usually multiple somethings...

But the thing I enjoy the most is that the format for each shoot is kinda in line with the model's preferences. Seems like BTG (and all Grooby) photog's allow the model to be themselves and if they're TOPS then the photos/vids will be shaded in that direction and for bottoms the same. Obviously there's some coaching going on because most models are amateurs at this and the photog gets the basics or drops hints or whatever. But for the most part, the individuality of that model is respected and I think that's real cool. :cool:

Thanks Doc for your Input!

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Originally Posted by DrDickenstein

But the thing I enjoy the most is that the format for each shoot is kinda in line with the model's preferences. Seems like BTG (and all Grooby) photog's allow the model to be themselves and if they're TOPS then the photos/vids will be shaded in that direction and for bottoms the same.

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Absolutely. Well put.

We've had this discussion a number of times. Every set or model is not going to appeal to every member. If we tried to do that, we'd have a watery, dull, formulatic website that nobody would be too happy with. Different photographers prefer to shoot different things and with that coupled with working with the models, we get sets which are geared towards certain sub-fetishes. Many of our sets do appeal to a wider range but some sets don't. If a model is only ever a top and uncomfortable about showing her asshole or spreading wide, we're not going to be going to her for that - we're going to focus on her more dominant nature and her cock. We've had models who have difficulty getting erect because they are mainly bottoms ... and we shoot them in that way. That's why over the course of the month, you get a wide selection of different types, body sizes, ages, etc. It's a wide selection and each model is unlikely to appeal to everyone.

You can have your say here, not on the models comments areas as I've stated, that's not the place for it. Being a paying member and having an opinion and giving feedback is encouraged and respected but we have a wide spectrum of members to keep happy so don't suppose 2-3 of the more vocal ones are speaking for the masses.

Thanks
seanchai

Looks like Seanchai and Dr. Dickenstein are on top of it (pardon the pun).

Show the models the way they are -- natural top, bottom, or versatile. And let free-market economics rule the day. (And let's continue to contribute to the economy of this site !)

Yeah, I'm still around.

(You can have your say here, not on the models comments areas as I've stated, that's not the place for it. Being a paying member and having an opinion and giving feedback is encouraged and respected but we have a wide spectrum of members to keep happy so don't suppose 2-3 of the more vocal ones are speaking for the masses) I have veiwed many photo shoots and have had added comments and have read the comments of other members as well.and seen where you have come to the defense of the site an its rules in when members express there dissapointment about there not being enough ass shots in there favorite or new BTG photo shoot! there have been way more than 2-3 vocal members! And I speak for me,and If I have to stand alone on this topic for it to be heard,So be it

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Originally Posted by MrF

Looks like Seanchai and Dr. Dickenstein are on top of it (pardon the pun).

Show the models the way they are -- natural top, bottom, or versatile. And let free-market economics rule the day. (And let's continue to contribute to the economy of this site !)

Yeah, I'm still around.

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Thanks for your input! Mabey the should update the site so the members can go to the search area and check off Top & Bottom BTG's

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Originally Posted by nycguy

I like the ass shots as well, Definitly more appealing to me than a constant stream of cock shots. I think the photos have gotten much better over the years. The site caters to everyone, eventually. Just be patient!

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I agree eventually!thanks for your input

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Originally Posted by andwar

Thanks for your input! Mabey the should update the site so the members can go to the search area and check off Top & Bottom BTG's

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That's not going to happen - most shoots are solo and most girls are top and bottom.
Look at the thumbnails and if it's not your type - move on.
I'm failing to see what the big deal is and respectfully, you are really overstating the point and over-reacting. This is the only site I know of, of this type which does have search options and you can search the hardcore for different sexual preferences.

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Originally Posted by seanchai

That's not going to happen - most shoots are solo and most girls are top and bottom.
Look at the thumbnails and if it's not your type - move on.
I'm failing to see what the big deal is and respectfully, you are really overstating the point and over-reacting. This is the only site I know of, of this type which does have search options and you can search the hardcore for different sexual preferences.

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The only site with search options possibly!and this feature is greatly appreciated.I'm just looking to level the playing field!if your into having a btg have you bite the pillow,I'm not mad at you!But what of the ones that aren't into that! I think the photo shoots should cater to them too!

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Originally Posted by andwar

But what of the ones that aren't into that! I think the photo shoots should cater to them too!

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So your telling me you want us to get a model and shoot her without showing her cock ... just her ass?
You have your knickers in a twist over the Foxy sets as she says she's "top only" and we didn't shoot her in photos where she could get fucked ... but practically every other set shows cock and ass photos on solo girls?

How are our photo shoots not catering to guys who don't want to get fucked?

I think what he really is getting at is that he want 'X' amount of ass shots in the sets. I'll do my best to work on that for you in the future andwar and other 'bottom' luvers

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Originally Posted by Remy757Photog

I think what he really is getting at is that he want 'X' amount of ass shots in the sets. I'll do my best to work on that for you in the future andwar and other 'bottom' luvers

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I agree - if the girl a) has an ass worth shooting and b) isn't totally turned off by showing her ass. Having X amount of any shots - and X amount of others, just ends up being shooting by numbers and the best shoots you've done are the ones which just end up ... where they go.

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Originally Posted by seanchai

So your telling me you want us to get a model and shoot her without showing her cock ... just her ass?
You have your knickers in a twist over the Foxy sets as she says she's "top only" and we didn't shoot her in photos where she could get fucked ... but practically every other set shows cock and ass photos on solo girls?

How are our photo shoots not catering to guys who don't want to get fucked?

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NO! I'm saying make the shoot cater to all! add some more ass shots with the cock shots!my view isn't based on Foxy's photo shoot alone! I'm just trying to get you guys to keep that in mind in future photo shoots!

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Originally Posted by Remy757Photog

I think what he really is getting at is that he want 'X' amount of ass shots in the sets. I'll do my best to work on that for you in the future andwar and other 'bottom' luvers

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Thats exactly what I want Remy!it would be greatly appreciated thank you!

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Originally Posted by andwar

NO! I'm saying make the shoot cater to all! add some more ass shots with the cock shots!my view isn't based on Foxy's photo shoot alone! I'm just trying to get you guys to keep that in mind in future photo shoots!

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We're already doing what youre asking for. Like Seanchai is trying to explain, it is a total waist of time showing a girl's ass if it is either (a) not in good condition or (b) totally turns her off because SHE IS NOT A BOTTOM. Trust me. Its is a waist of time and almost ruins the shoot when you're trying to force a model to do something she is not comfortable with. If the girl doesnt know how to pose or portray herself as a top or bottom, it shows in the shoot if we try to force it.

Secondly, for the girls that do take ass shots, we can only take so many before we have to move on. Im sure most of us take at least 10-20 ass shots. What more do you want??? Im personally not going to take 75 ass shots. Theres only so many angles you can get.

Finally, if this about the Foxxy shot for one, it was hot as it is. The End. If you do not find what you're looking for in a set - just move on and take the "L". If you see a pattern in all of our shoots, then I guess you have a theory but we have already addressed those issues and corrected them.

These girls have dicks. We are all here because these girls have dicks. How we choose to embrace that is entirely individual. It would be quite dumb not to focus on the cock most of all when thats what makes this niche stand out from everything else.

And Let Everybody Say....giggidy Giggidy Goo!!! Lmao! Keep Up The Great Work Guys!!!! Over 10 Years Speaks For It Self!!!!

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Originally Posted by tgyrllikr

And Let Everybody Say....giggidy Giggidy Goo!!! Lmao! Keep Up The Great Work Guys!!!! Over 10 Years Speaks For It Self!!!!

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THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT:confused:LOL! ANY I"M HOPING FOR TEN MORE YEARS!BUT YOU HAVE TO CHANGE WITH TIMES

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Originally Posted by DirtySouth

We're already doing what youre asking for. Like Seanchai is trying to explain, it is a total waist of time showing a girl's ass if it is either (a) not in good condition or (b) totally turns her off because SHE IS NOT A BOTTOM. Trust me. Its is a waist of time and almost ruins the shoot when you're trying to force a model to do something she is not comfortable with. If the girl doesnt know how to pose or portray herself as a top or bottom, it shows in the shoot if we try to force it.

Secondly, for the girls that do take ass shots, we can only take so many before we have to move on. Im sure most of us take at least 10-20 ass shots. What more do you want??? Im personally not going to take 75 ass shots. Theres only so many angles you can get.

Finally, if this about the Foxxy shot for one, it was hot as it is. The End. If you do not find what you're looking for in a set - just move on and take the "L". If you see a pattern in all of our shoots, then I guess you have a theory but we have already addressed those issues and corrected them.

These girls have dicks. We are all here because these girls have dicks. How we choose to embrace that is entirely individual. It would be quite dumb not to focus on the cock most of all when thats what makes this niche stand out from everything else.

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I understand your point!and by the way this has nothing to do with Ebony's shoot!I'm not asking you to take 75 shots either!I get that you dont want to take a photo shoot of a BTG that looks like someone stuck and lite a firecracker in her ass,or an unwilling Top!But for a BTG who's a Bottom or Versatile, snap a few more for the ass men on the site

BTW - I'm an ass man. I'm top only.
There were a few sets earlier in 2008 where some fat assed girls did have the opportunity missed but we also spent 2008 getting some of the newer photographers up to speed and the changes that they've made to this site have been immense.
Since I called them out on the lack of ass photos on those sets, practically every set that's came in has been near perfect in terms of balance of photos, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by seanchai

BTW - I'm an ass man. I'm top only.
There were a few sets earlier in 2008 where some fat assed girls did have the opportunity missed but we also spent 2008 getting some of the newer photographers up to speed and the changes that they've made to this site have been immense.
Since I called them out on the lack of ass photos on those sets, practically every set that's came in has been near perfect in terms of balance of photos, in my opinion.

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Ok! I wasn't too sure,and again to each his own!And you have definetly kept your word and, made this site member user friendly and, the photographers you have now, are definetly better than some of the past!Again if I have to stand alone to get this issue at least talked about,So Be It! You like doing Polls ask the members what they would like to see more of in the future photo shoots!take a look at NILA's new photo shoot she has 480 views on her video already,And PAN D has my vote for Model of the year.Oh yes,Ms Goodbars asshole was winking at me in her video!check it out and you'll see why!its an ass mans dream!just hoping to get a few more ass shots on my fav's,and new BTG's! Thanks for taking the time to reply Seanchai

I do have to agree with Dirty South, there has been a couple shoots were the model specifically says she doesn't want to show off her ass. Me taking it that she says this because 'she doesn't want clients to think that she isn't functional' still tried to get the ass shots out of her and it was a headache.

Generally though, most are willing to show off their ass or play with a dildo, which is something I always try to get them to do. I wonder 'andwar' would you count the dildo play as acceptable 'ass footage'? With some models I don't push the issue of 'toys' too much, but I can try to ramp it up more. I never heard too many comments about dildos so I never know where members stand.

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I never heard too many comments about dildos so I never know where members stand.

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[I]Dildo play isn't my favorite thing in a shoot. Just my $0.02 CDN.[/I]
I think ass shots are universally appreciated by the members here. In my experience here as a member, I am generally satisfied by the level of 'ass footage' in an average set.
All-in-all, the shoots are generally well balanced and there's at least a few shots in every set that appeal to most 'fetishes' and tastes. Life is not perfect however. Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by andwar

Thanks for your input! Mabey the should update the site so the members can go to the search area and check off Top & Bottom BTG's

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I totally agree with Doc Dickenstein and my tastes are similar. I like a nice stick, nice ass, pretty face and real tits. Every girl doesn't fit my tastes; every shoot/girl wont fit everyone else's.

Although your top/bottom check off idea is interesting, I would think it might not work well or would eliminate girls from searches that although you might not wanna "get banged by" you would want to look at. Being a member on/off for like 9 years, I can say right now is the best its been. Keep up the good work photogs (especially dirty and remy) and Seanchai.

I agree with the OP. I would pay for a site that catered to women who were completely bottom. Something like "Grooby Presents: Bottoms UP" that feature submissive (feminine) women. As it stands I just can't see myself subscribing to the current shoots.

There was 1 photo shoot with a girl from Brooklyn I think her name is Camille where she was sitting on the bar stool with tight low rise jeans on and when she leaned forward, you can see her thong and the crack of her booty. That Photo shoot alone was worth it to join the site. Now, it is not so much.

JMO...

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Originally Posted by Unisex

I agree with the OP. I would pay for a site that catered to women who were completely bottom. Something like "Grooby Presents: Bottoms UP" that feature submissive (feminine) women. As it stands I just can't see myself subscribing to the current shoots.

There was 1 photo shoot with a girl from Brooklyn I think her name is Camille where she was sitting on the bar stool with tight low rise jeans on and when she leaned forward, you can see her thong and the crack of her booty. That Photo shoot alone was worth it to join the site. Now, it is not so much.

JMO...

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If your saying that your not a member of this site, because there isn't enough bottom girls ... then I think your missing the point of this post completely ... and also the website. Virtually every girl does have ass shots - and "fuck me" poses.

I'm a lil F'd up right now...but I'll tell u what...it's been hashed out. It doesn't need to be discussed.

Seriously if u wanna see strictly ASS....go to a female ass site. Plain n simple. If u wanna see what Tgirls have to offer, come here and see a lil bit of everything a Tgirl brings.....Dirty said it best in his post, but I'm too F'd to gofind it and quote it. i respect everybody's likes/dislikes.....but let's be for real. Why r YOU on a TS site if all u want is ass? I could be way off base but shit don't add up to me.

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Originally Posted by Remy757Photog

I do have to agree with Dirty South, there has been a couple shoots were the model specifically says she doesn't want to show off her ass. Me taking it that she says this because 'she doesn't want clients to think that she isn't functional' still tried to get the ass shots out of her and it was a headache.

Generally though, most are willing to show off their ass or play with a dildo, which is something I always try to get them to do. I wonder 'andwar' would you count the dildo play as acceptable 'ass footage'? With some models I don't push the issue of 'toys' too much, but I can try to ramp it up more. I never heard too many comments about dildos so I never know where members stand.

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I wouldluv to have future shoots and,videos include "DILDO PLAY" when possible Thanks Remy!And I understood Dirty's point!

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Originally Posted by bigdicki

I totally agree with Doc Dickenstein and my tastes are similar. I like a nice stick, nice ass, pretty face and real tits. Every girl doesn't fit my tastes; every shoot/girl wont fit everyone else's.

Although your top/bottom check off idea is interesting, I would think it might not work well or would eliminate girls from searches that although you might not wanna "get banged by" you would want to look at. Being a member on/off for like 9 years, I can say right now is the best its been. Keep up the good work photogs (especially dirty and remy) and Seanchai.

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I too like all those attributes in a BTG!and not every BTG fits my taste either!and I have said that that I definetly feel that site has Improved in a positive direction this year with the user freindly features! and I think that Remy Dirty,and Tony are great Photographers.thats not in question. again just hoping to get a few more ass shots "When Possible" out of them

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Originally Posted by bdser88

[I]Dildo play isn't my favorite thing in a shoot. Just my $0.02 CDN.[/I]
I think ass shots are universally appreciated by the members here. In my experience here as a member, I am generally satisfied by the level of 'ass footage' in an average set.
All-in-all, the shoots are generally well balanced and there's at least a few shots in every set that appeal to most 'fetishes' and tastes. Life is not perfect however. Deal with it.

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I respect your oppinion!maybe we don't look at the same shoots!

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Originally Posted by andwar

I too like all those attributes in a BTG!and not every BTG fits my taste either!and I have said that that I definetly feel that site has Improved in a positive direction this year with the user freindly features! and I think that Remy Dirty,and Tony are great Photographers.thats not in question. again just hoping to get a few more ass shots "When Possible" out of them

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I know this has been said before. And I have seen you be, at least, a little better at this. PLEASE, clean up the punctuation. And honestly, do you really need that many exclamation points? I'm not sayin' folk... I'm just sayin'. :cool:

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Originally Posted by bigdicki

I know this has been said before. And I have seen you be, at least, a little better at this. PLEASE, clean up the punctuation. And honestly, do you really need that many exclamation points? I'm not sayin' folk... I'm just sayin'. :cool:

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When I pointed this out to the brotha, it seems as though it fell on a defensive ego. I wasn't trying to be a nit-picker or anything of the sort, but we have a serious problem in this country when it comes to spelling, punctuation and grammar. I only pointed out that his posts were a difficult read because of the punctuation glitches. And from what I read from the reply was a defensive attitude about that grievous error being pointed out! I'm glad I wasn't the only person struggling to read a simple sentence!
Back in the day, with grammatical errors such as those, I would have had to write on the blackboard a hundred times for the mistakes I made and sent home with a note from my teacher that I was failing English!
In any personal or official correspondence, a correct and coherent grasp of the language is an imperative! As a college graduate, or as a any college graduate knows, writing should not be a problem once you gain entrance into that institution; its essential one has knowledge of English grammar and composition!
I'm glad I wasn't the only one that has a problem when trying to decipher those posts!

:cool:

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Originally Posted by seanchai

If your saying that your not a member of this site, because there isn't enough bottom girls ... then I think your missing the point of this post completely ... and also the website. Virtually every girl does have ass shots - and "fuck me" poses.

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I WAS a paying member(3+ years) and I didn't like the way the direction the site was going with the shoots.

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but let's be for real. Why r YOU on a TS site if all u want is ass? I could be way off base but shit don't add up to me.

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It doesn't add up to YOU because you're too intoxicated to do your own math. There are post op transgender models too. Does that NOT add up to YOU either now?

This isn't about mathematics. It's preference. But, I'll take your advice and go subscribe to a non-transgender site. Because obviously it ain't popping like that here.

Background:
I'm an ass man and in fact i stumbled upon shemales and all that because of my obsession with ass (This just to clear up where i stand)

Curiosity:
I'm sayin the most appealing 2 things shemale-wise is coochie and coochie one you can only suck the other you suck and F@#% but out of 60 or so pics a shoot these are the only things that are shown off. In my opinion if at the end of a photo shoot these two things are not properly vetted then the authenticity and the appeal of the implied site is suspect (and it doesn't matter what side of the table you want to lay (top or bottom). Imagine just a photo shoot with just tits (as some of the shoots wind up being). What a bore???

My Point:
As a member for somewhere in the relm (on and off, at least three time a year) of 6-7 years I have had to just say F' it I'm not paying for this site if they are going to either half step on the shoots or only show half the pics, holding out for the next week. Same goes for the quality and style of the photo shoot of the females. We as members/customers have a say in the type of shoot we'd like to see, and the photographers (wishing i were one) should convey our needs (the customers demand) to the ladies so that all are satisfied. Its been my perception that these shoots have in fact gotten better. I think what we are discussing is in regards to that strive for perfection. But those of us who like to serve, want to see what we getting into(the booty) and those who like getting served wants to see whats hitting them (that penis). For the record though it all starts at the booty.

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Originally Posted by Handandsom

are going to either half step on the shoots or only show half the pics, holding out for the next week. We as members/customers have a say in the type of shoot we'd like to see,

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Just for the record, we've never shown half the pics and held out for the next week? We have one "Model of the Month" who is an extra set on top of the regular weekly updates whom we split over the month - we've always done that model, that way, on this site and the sister site, Shemale Yum, without a problem.

Also this and other Grooby websites are the only websites I know of, in this niche, that allow this sort of discourse and public forum. Members are invited to give feedback but of course, we can't always, please everybody, all of the time. It's a very fine balance.

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Originally Posted by bigdicki

I know this has been said before. And I have seen you be, at least, a little better at this. PLEASE, clean up the punctuation. And honestly, do you really need that many exclamation points? I'm not sayin' folk... I'm just sayin'. :cool:

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this is a porn site!!!!!!!!I dont care about my punctuation!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not looking for a good grade on grammar! I'm looking to get a lil more ass shots in the new photo shoots!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by andwar

this is a porn site!!!!!!!!I dont care about my punctuation!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not looking for a good grade on grammar! I'm looking to get a lil more ass shots in the new photo shoots!!!!!!!!!

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Porn site or not, if your trying to communicate then it would be nice to use the language correctly as it would make for easier reading and there would be less chance to be misunderstood.
Also "porn site" or "porn lovers" and education aren't mutually exclusive?

:cool: